FARSANG Interviews: Dele Sosimi

Dan Addleman interviews Afrobeat titan Dele Sosimi ahead of the 'Rememba Fela’ event at Manchester’s SOUP on 15/10/2022.

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Dec 09, 2022

Dele pictured with the late Tony Allen (left)

Held on and around Fela Kuti’s birthday every year, ‘Rememba Fela’ events happen worldwide to commemorate the Godfather of Afrobeat. On the 25th anniversary of Fela's death, Dele Sosimi came to host this year's event in Manchester. He kindly agreed to speak with FARSANG’s Dan Addleman beforehand.

FJ: Thanks for speaking to us, Dele! Have you just travelled from London?

DS: No, I was in Cardiff yesterday. They did the first ever Felabration Cardiff.

FJ: How was that?

DS: It was great. In October, I would usually go to Cardiff and the University’s School of Music, to do a masterclass on Afrobeat. Then I would put on a concert in the evening, and those who participate would then feature with my band. This time around they asked me to do a Felabration, so I mentioned that tomorrow was the 15th of October and Fela’s birthday. They replied that the 14th was more practical because it was a school day. We did the masterclass in the morning and in the evening we featured participants. We had two flautists, one alto sax, one drummer, one bass player, one guitar player and one singer. We featured them on stage and they played with us as part of the ‘Felabration’, which is now a yearly event in Cardiff too. ‘Felabration’ is a licensed event, so everybody who does it will usually require a licence from the Kuti family in Nigeria, and since this is more for educational purposes, they got a discounted licence. If you use the name ‘Felabration’, you have to get a licence from the family.

FJ: I went to the Rememba Fela in Manchester last year where Irfan (Rainy, the DJ who puts on the events) was playing. It was in a smaller venue, but it looks like even more people will come tonight. It was 25 years this year since he died, wasn’t it?

DS: Yeah, he died in August, and they then celebrated his birthday in October. They’ve celebrated it on the 15th of October ever since.

FJ: Will there be big parties in Nigeria today?

DS: Oh, hell yes! They have been partying since October the 1st! There have also been lectures and symposia on different social and political issues, especially those which will affect the younger generations, both in Africa and worldwide. The symposia raise these, debate them and offer solutions.

Then there are musical performances, which include talks on the history and evolution of different genres. Some people have not even really heard how Afrobeat began - they only know where it's at today, from the works of current Afrobeat performers like myself. They don’t know how it was when Fela used to write shorter songs, where he could have a 3 and a half minute-to-5 minute song. A classic Fela tune in the 90’s was usually about an hour long: a 30 minutes instrumental on one side and 30 minutes on the other side!

So yes, the party has been on, and continues until the end of October.

FJ: Are you returning to Nigeria for this?

DS: I have not been for a while because I’ve been based in the UK, and since I’ve been based here I have not really looked into Nigeria. The UK is home for me now. Here, I’ve just adapted to the environment, adapted to the community and made the best of what I’m surrounded by.

FJ: I previously wrote that you’re the unofficial Afrobeat ambassador to the UK. Was I correct?

DS: Indeed! I teach and encourage participation, regardless of where you come from! All I need is your interest. Once you show interest and dedication, I’m happy to put you through the paces. I have private students and institutions which I go to, and we have group or one-to-one sessions. Enthusiasm is key for me. The more you give, the more I give. The less enthusiastic you are, the less I feel inclined to waste my time with you. But when I see I’m not wasting my time, I’m like: ‘Oh yeah, you can soak that up that quick, ok here’s another one, ohhh you got that one, oh my God I better give you a big one now, here’s a big one, uhu!’. It will take time for you to digest that. You digest that, regurgitate it and, when we next meet, I want to see some progress. If I get there and see progress I say: ‘Wow! Ok, here’s some more!’. I just take that attitude.

FJ: That’s great. So you lecture in Afrobeat at universities?

DS: The main three are Cardiff University’s School of Music, Trinity Laban (where Fela studied, in the Cutty Sark), and Rose Bruford college of Theatre and Performance, in Sidcot. So I regularly go between those three to work with the students. I’ve just got a Honorary Fellow conferred on my humble self! I’m now an Honorary Fellow of the Rose Bruford College of Performing Arts and Theatre!

FJ: Wow, that’s very fancy! Nice one, man.

DS: It was fancy! I was at the ceremony for the 2022 graduation party, barely three weeks ago now.

FJ: So you had all your robes on?

DS: Ohhh, I had all my robes on, I donned that thing around my neck… I was wearing my cap to the side! It was surreal in a way, but I was highly touched. When you don’t expect something and it comes up it’s like: ‘Oooh - I’ll have it!’.

FJ: You play a lot of gigs, too. I’ve seen you at Boomtown and twice here in Manchester.

DS: The Blues Kitchen! I even did Band on the Wall way back… the Crescent Community Centre in York and Clwb Ifor Bach in Cardiff too. I even went as far as the Queen’s Hall in Narberth, in rural Pembrokeshire. I keep going up and down. I’m happy to spread the gospel according to Afrobeat!

FJ: Do you have a favourite Fela tune? To play, listen, or dance to?

DS: I just love every one.

FJ: I really like when you play Opposite People live!

DS: Oooh, did you hear the drum solo at the end? We leave the last one for the drum solo and he just goes, man. Opposite People is one of my favourites. I also like Johnny Just Drop (J.J.D.). That was recorded live at Kalakuta Republic. That’s the one that starts with (sings opening baritone saxophone riff). Oooh, it’s one of the ones I love playing when I have a 5 piece horn section - oooh!

FJ: That’s when it’s the full monty?

DS: I have a trumpet, a trombone, a tenor sax, a baritone sax and then a bass saxophone. When they come in on that line, it’s like: “Oh hell, that wall of horns!” When it hits you, you will say: ‘Oh, yes please, Dele! Thank you! Oooh, you masters of groove! Danke schön, danke schön as they say in Germany, merci beaucoup as they say in France, and muchas gracias as they say in Spain! You will just be bowing, and you will just wanna party all night long. When you hear it, it catches your attention.

FJ: So have you come to Rememba Fela before in Manchester?

DS: No, this is the first time I’ve been able to. Normally I would be part of a Felabration somewhere. Usually I would be at an event where I’ve been invited, or they’ve invited my band to perform. My favourite way of doing a Felabration is to have my band reorchestrating a couple of Fela classics and then we invite some special guests to come and do a rendition. Like we invited the Hess brothers from Denmark, a pianist and drummer.

FJ: The appeal’s global, isn’t it?

DS: Everybody has their own take on Afrobeat. I love the improvisational aspect, where we don’t do talking. We don’t sing, people just come with their instruments and say: “ look, I’m a drummer”. So I’ll have two drummers on stage: a regular drummer and a guest drummer with his own drum kit. We just go to shop, and I say: “Oh my god, two drum kits?”. Then we’ll have two bass players, 9 horn players, and we may have a string section.

FJ: The more the merrier?

DS: We throw a big party! But tonight, DJ Irfan is gonna sort everybody out. We’ll be here til 4am I think. They’ve sold out, haven’t they?

*overhears the music starting*

This is one of my favourites: Equalisation of Trouser and Pant. You cannot look at that little piece of pant and think it's not important, because when trousers come on down and there’s no pant - you’re naked. Those little pants - even when it’s a g-string you’re not naked!

DA: Is that what the song’s about?

DS: Yeah, Equalisation of Trouser and Pant! This is the trouser, this is the pant. Trousers have long legs, pants don’t. Trousers have belt, pockets, a zip, blah blah blah, pant doesn’t have anything. But pant, as small as it is, has power! If trouser is not there and you have no pants you are naked. All the secrets inside your cracks, everybody will see - if you are packing heavy or packing light, people will know! But if you have pant nobody knows! So, in the same way, you have rich and you have poor. The rich cannot survive without the poor. But the poor can survive without the rich. Ooh this is one of my favourites, man. Tony Allen on drums.

FJ: Rest in peace! Do you have memories of working with Tony?

DS: Oh, yes. In fact, we had just started an all-Nigerian quartet. Tony on drums, a Nigerian bass player, Nigerian horn player Bukky Leo, and me on piano.

FJ: I think Bukky Leo was playing some Fela tunes at Blues Kitchen yesterday. Is he coming down tonight?

DS: I’m not sure, I think he’s back in London. We’re both based in London. He used to live very near me. I think I even have a photo of the quartet, let me see if I still have it.

*Shows phone*. These are some of the last photos of the band we were all in. There’s Tony, there’s me wearing the same DS top! That’s Feso Trombone, have you ever heard of him?

FJ: I haven’t, no.

DS: He used to play with me in Egypt 80, he was on trombone. That’s us again, just hanging out . He (Tony Allen) used to usually stay in Maida Vale, so that was the apartment there. This was in 2018.

FJ: So not long before Tony passed away?

DS: Yeah, not long. Oh man, I was gutted. I couldn't believe it.

FJ: I think his drumming is at its best on Roforofo Fight.

DS: Ooh, yes! So good. I’ll never forget Tony. We had a ball, man.

From left to right: Horn player Bukky Leo, drummer Tony Allen and Dele Sosimi.

FJ: I should ask you really, what were Tony and Fela like? What are your memories of them as people?

DS: Tony was a cool guy - super cool. Fela was just one hell of a groover, party animal, and a hell of a musician. He was quite eclectic, you know? He was special. I mean, there are no other musicians that I’ve felt were that tuned in to the natural elements as those two. Fela’s natural environment helped him create what he did musically. The fact that he was based in Lagos, that he had his own commune, he had people from all walks of society living in it, that was his inspiration. He built it so easily, I don’t know many people that can do that, you know? I mean I’m writing. My writing is based on my experiences, but he was a genius, he was just special.

FJ: You were really young when you first went to the Kalakuta commune, right?

DS: Fifteen! I was fifteen on my first tour with Fela.

FJ: I bet you saw some things for a fifteen-year old on that tour!

DS: I was terrified! But at the same time, I knew I could do it. I was actually waiting for him to say “no way”. Then, by the time I was seventeen, I was sitting in on Fela’s sessions with Roy Ayers for their album together.

FJ: Were you a big fan when you first went along?

DS: Of course. The reason I got a look in in the first place was because I was best friends with his son. Femi and I were in high school together. We’d already started playing Fela Kuti songs together in the school band anyway.

FJ: And are you still good friends with Femi?

DS: I’d say he’s my brother, not my friend. He’s my musical brother and my spiritual brother. We haven’t seen each other for years, but he remains my brother in my heart.

FJ: You’ve played with him a lot though, haven’t you?

DS: We started his band together (Positive Force), and then I came to the UK.

FJ: I saw Seun Kuti play in Brixton last year. Have you ever played with him?

DS: He once invited me on stage to jam with him. I went to watch him and he tried to bring me on stage. I said: “No, no, no. You do your show. I'm here to enjoy myself.” Then he calls me on stage to come and do a solo! Of course, who am I to say no? I just got on stage and played with him, and Gilles Peterson was there!

FJ: I bet he was a big fan of what he was seeing!

DS: He was a big fan for sure. He put a post up asking if anybody took a video of the ‘magical’ time when Dele Sosimi came on? I said: “Oh yeah!”. He saw the chemistry was there. There are some people who come on stage and have beautiful chemistry. But sometimes people come on stage and you don’t feel anything. It’s like when you were watching my band that you reviewed - you felt the magic.

*Equalisation of Trouser and Pant plays from the main room*

This just takes me back to the Shrine (Fela’s venue in Lagos). It was magical, and everybody was smoking. So even if you didn’t smoke - you’d go in and still come out high!

FJ: I think that’s partly why it’s important that you’re still doing your thing. There’s not that many people still going who have been there and played with Fela.

DS: Most people don’t have a clue!

*Singing along to Equalisation of Trouser and Pant*

This is the comparison: he’s just described the trouser, now he’s describing pant! “It’s smaller than trouser” - it doesn’t have decorations like trousers, “like a button, like a zip, like a buckle”. But as small as it is, “10 times smaller than trouser”, don’t look at it as a small thing. You cannot rip it off from the side because it's small, it has to travel down your legs like trouser! “Mr VIP, now you think you're bigger than the small man, listen very well and learn!”. You just take off your trouser without pants, you’re naked, mate!

FJ: Do you have any other favourite Fela lyrics/songs?

DS: Opposite People, Jonny Just Drop, Ikoyi Blindness, and Trouble Sleep (Yanga Wake Am), “Palava” they call it. That’s like a ballad-y one.

FJ: Do you have songs of yours that you’re most proud of?

DS: I’m proud of all of them. I like Wahala. E Go Betta got me through lockdown. Do you know what it is? It’s a mantra. I say to my children: “Look, e go betta. No matter how hard a time you’re having, e go betta”. It’s like you’re in the pitch black of night and can’t stand it anymore. You just have to be patient and keep saying: “Daybreak is coming”. ‘E go betta’ means: “It will get better; tomorrow will be better than today”. It may rain and rain but one day the sun’s gonna come out. So just bear it, take one more step, no matter how tired you are. The darkest hour is the last hour before sunrise and most people give up during that most testing time. So I just say: “hang in there, I know you can”.

FJ: When I say the word “Afrobeat” to a lot of my friends now, they often mention Afrobeats artists such as Burna Boy and Wizkid, are you familiar with them? Do you see them as part of the genre, or something different?

DS: I see them as an offshoot, because they have some influences from the original blueprint. It’s quite commercial and it’s the “in” thing at the moment, so it’s quite interesting how their recent rise to the limelight has been quite fast. It’s great that we now have a couple of Grammy award winners from “the genre”. I like it - but it’s completely different to Afrobeat!

FJ: You mention it as very commercial, while Fela’s music is very revolutionary - aggressive even?

DS: Fela’s Afrobeat is socio-political, rootsy, and a blend. It has many improvisational aspects to it as well as a rhythmic call-and-response melange of motifs built to work with each other. If you want to break it down academically, you would try to look at both together, but you can’t - they’re not the same. I don’t criticise music though, as it’s an art form. I will look at it and I might take to it. If not, then I say it’s a work of art. I think that some of the music enthusiasts of today have not really heard where Afrobeat started from… they’ve not even heard evolutional Afrobeat! They’ve only heard a sample of how Afrobeat got to where it is today. You must start from the late 60’s, go into the early 70’s, mid 70’s, late 70’s and then just bring that journey up until today, you know!

FJ: Just to show people the progression?

DS: I put a three-CD compilation together for Universal Records. That gives a good story of Afrobeat, especially in terms of the influences from and the similarities with Afrobeats. It’s called ‘Essential Afrobeat’ - but people don’t listen to CDs anymore!

FJ: Well, maybe they do, even in the age of Spotify!

DS: Yeahhh, Spotify…

FJ: The bane of your career?

I don’t know - it’s there, my record label uses it!

FJ: You’re doing good anyway!

DS: I don’t see doing good or doing bad. I love what I do, and I do it for the love of it. That’s it. The minute I stop loving it, I don’t know what I’ll do. Right now I can’t see this happening. I’m experimenting and doing all sorts of things. I’m sticking to Afrobeat, but I’m venturing out too. I’m doing projects with Medlar and with artists from South Africa, such as DJ Qness and a duo called Sparrow and Bobolsa. There’s so many other collaborative requests coming that I haven’t had time to realise, but I can’t wait to get my fingers into them. I want to get dirty!! Get in there and see… For me, I’ve reached the stage where I love a musical challenge. If someone sends me something, and I like it, I’ll never say no.

FJ: Do you ever feel under pressure?

DS: I don’t do pressure. Whenever I hear: “We have a deadline - we need it completed by next week”, I say: “Ok, sorry, wrong person!”. Imagine a joint of lamb which you want to cook. You don’t throw it in the oven, cook it and take it out. Bring it to me and I’ll think of what to marinade this with and the final flavour. I think of all the flavours, herbs and spices which I can add to it. Once I’ve thought of them, I will narrow them down to a few and begin the process of gently rubbing it in… you gotta rub it in, let it sit. Then you set the heat. You don’t cook good food in a hurry. You’ve got to let it cook slowly. So truly, when a record label comes to me in a hurry, my first question is: “do you have a deadline?” If they say: “At your leisure!”, then I’m relaxed. I don’t rush into things.

FJ: How does this influence your approach to music?

I might listen to a playlist for a week before something hits me. Then I say: “Oh yes that’s it!”, and I know which direction I’m going in. Music grows on you. You may listen to something today and not like it. Then you listen to it in a club. It pounds in your chest, and suddenly you say: “My God… oooh! I love this track!”, because you never felt that depth when it played out of a phone speaker. You watch the song live, you see the musicians and… “Ooh it’s growing on me, it’s growing on me!”. I have that attitude, so I never say music is bad or good. If music makes me tick, if it tickles my liver and my liver quivers, then I’m into it. If I don’t feel it the first time, I give it a week before I come back to it. I listen again, and keep listening. I’ve written a couple of sixteen, thirty-two and sixty-four bar pieces with no idea where I’m taking them. Cool shit, but the direction is not yet clear. Ok, I'll come back to it. I put it in a marinade.

FJ: A lot of the music which you’ve put out since moving to the UK remains faithful to Afrobeat but it incorporates a lot of house and techno music. You’ve had remixes from O’Flynn, Pataki and Medlar -

DS: The L’owe L’owe remix (by underground South African producer DJ Qness) is the biggest one!

FJ: And even dub music as well, with the dub legend that is Scientist -

DS: And Prince Fatty - oooh yes!

FJ: I saw the quartet last year -

DS: How did you feel?

FJ: I loved it! We all had to stay sat down because of COVID regulations but we all wanted to get up and move!

DS: That was torture! Even me sitting down playing, I was like “oooh!”

FJ: There was a poetry group, ‘Young Identity Manchester’, and a girl performed feminist poetry, over Lady of all songs. That and Mattress are the two of Fela’s which feminists might take issue with the most. Was that intentional?

DS: It just happened like that, but it showed two sides of the coin: this is how Fela did it and this is a modern take on the music. The groove of the music worked with the poetry. For me that was cool.

FJ: She also used traditional call-and-response to say “fuck the patriarchy”, over Lady. Do you see that as part of modernising the genre?

DS: You have to create controversy, dialogue and curiosity. There’s always two sides to the argument. Some may not see what they are talking about, but there’s something for everybody. Some people say: “I don’t like the lyrics but I like the groove, so I’m going to dance to it”, while others relate to the lyrics and don’t like the other aspect of it. For a few everything just makes sense! Some people complain and some people don’t. Some are just lackadaisical.

FJ: This side of Fela obviously has to be seen within the social context of Nigeria at the time, right?

Fela wasn’t being anti-feminist, he was discussing the traditional attitude of Nigerian women. Before we were colonised, women had a way of life that was neither feminist nor patriarchal. They said: “We massage male egos by being subservient to them. They know we have power and we let them know they are the King”. This is anti-feminist, but there was a time in our lives when this is how we rolled! When colonisation came, women felt they could diverge from that culture, from a way of life which wasn’t imposed but a natural reaction which brought on another reaction.

Take the marital institution breaking down. You have more kids who are lost, or have become miscreants and ne'er do wells. They don’t give a shit about love nor life and have no empathy. Meanwhile, you have an environment where everything is secure, parenthood is there and traditional values are instilled. Morality is at the height of things and there are a certain set of values which you appreciate, understand and implement in your lifestyle.

FJ: Could you say Fela was speaking about women from a different perspective then?

DS: Yes, from a historical perspective. Nowadays people want to behave like an English lady: ‘Oh you have to hold the door for me… I must be the first to sit down!’. I’d pull the chair out for her before she sits down. It’s OK! It’s a way of life too. But our way of life was different to that. No disrespect to women, but it was just there in situ. Nobody complained until the comparisons began. We’d see the Englishman pull the chair for his lady and she’d say: “Oh, I want my husband to do that for me now!” It’s just like when I sing:

*singing*

“What have you done for me lately, bam-bada!”. Well, what have you done for me lately? Back home, I don’t take her out on a date and ask her to pay half. We don’t do that.

FJ: You pay?

DS: If I’m taking a girl out on a date, I’m sorting out everything! It’s on me. But then, when you try and pay, she says “No you don’t!”. “But I insist!” “No, you don’t, you can insist from here to Timbuktu!”. If I’m going to take you out, I pick up the tab. You take me out, you pick up the tab. That could then be misconstrued, because they don’t understand that’s the way we roll. They may even take offence to that and say: “I wanna pay half”. Ok, if you want to pay half, pay everything then. The next time, it’s on me. But I digress!

FJ: It’s certainly contentious, but it’s great to have an event like Rememba Fela where we can just enjoy the music.

DS: Yeah, we just enjoy the music and party all night long, vibe, meet new people, show off new dance moves, do sing-a-longs, call-and-response, repeat-after-me’s - it’s always good, man.

FJ: So tonight you’re hosting?

DS: I’m hosting and telling stories. I’ll be the bridge in between.

FJ: It’s interesting how, even when the lyrics are often quite serious and political, Afrobeat is so joyous and uplifting.

DS: It’s just vibing. You’ve got your spliff, maybe a nice rum, or a cocktail, maybe a mojito… nice! I think I need a mojito!

FJ: Well, on that note, thank you very much for talking to us, Dele. Have a good night!

DS: No worries, and you!

If you enjoyed this interview and want to enter an Afrobeat rabbit-hole, here’s some recommended articles and videos:

This article from John Doran introduces some of Fela Kuti’s best songs and gives some interesting insights into the man:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2016/may/05/fela-kuti-10-best-songs

This article: https://msafropolitan.com/2013/08/african-feminist-analysis-fela-lady.html, written by Nigerian-Finnish writer Minna Salami, provides interesting context on the gender and social issues discussed in this Fela classic.

Dele’s quartet playing “Opposite People” live: